I was with abu Mansur al-Mutatbbib who said the following. “One of my friends has said that he was with ibn abu al-‘Awja’ and ‘Abdallah ibn al-Muqaffa‘ in the holy Mosque of Makkah and ibn al-Muqaffa‘ said, “Do you see these creatures, pointing towards the location where people walk seven times around the Kabah‘? Of all these no one deserves to be called a human being accept that Shaikh sitting there, meaning thereby Imam abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.). The rest is garble and beasts.” Upon this ibn abu al-‘Awja’ said, “For what reason do you call him a human being and not the rest?” Ibn al-Muqaffa‘ then replied, “Because I saw with him what I did not see with the others.” Ibn abu al-”Awja’ then said, “We must test your claim.” Ibn al-Muqaffa‘ then said, “I advise you not to do so lest you will lose whatever faith you have. Ibn abu al-‘Awja’ then said, “I do not think that is what you mean. I think you are afraid of failing to substantiate what you have just said about this man.” Ibn al-Muqaffa‘ then said, “If that is what you think then go to him and protect yourself as much as you can. Be strong as much as you can so you are not harnnessed and note all points against and in your favor. Ibn abu al-‘Awja’ then left and ibn al-Muqaffa‘ and I remained there. When ibn abu al-‘Awja’ returned he said, “Woe is you, O ibn al-Muqaffa‘. This is not a human being even though he lives in this world. He is a spiritual being but appears in the form of man whenever he wants the out world and turns into a spiritual being whenever he wants the inner world. That is the way he is.” Ibn al-Muqaffa‘ then asked, “How does that happen?” Ibn abu al-‘Awja’ then said, “I sat near him and when everyone had gone he turned to me and said, “If it is the way they (people walking around the Ka‘bah) say, which is true then they are saved and you are destroyed. If it is the way you say it is, which is not so then you and they are all equal.” I then asked, “May Allah be kind to you. What is it that we say and what is it that they say? We all say the same thing.” He said, “How can what you say be equal to what they say? They say that they will have a return, a day of receiving their rewards and penalties. They believe in a religion which says that in the heavens is the Lord and that they are habitable while you say that they are in ruins and there is nothing in them.”Ibn abu al-‘Awja’ has said, “I then found the opportunity to speak and I asked, “What then keeps this Lord, if it is true the way they say that He exists, from appearing to His creatures and call them to His worship so that no two people would oppose each other? Why is He hiding from them and has only sent messengers? If He would have been in direct contact with them it would have been more helpful to have faith in Him.” He then responded, “Woe is you, how someone who is already shown His power within you is hiding from you? He brought you up. You did not even exist. He made you grow when you were so small. He gave you strength and power when you were so weak and will make you weak again after being strong. He make you sick after being healthy and can give you good health after suffering sickness. He can make you happy after you experience anger and make you angry after being happy. He can make you sad after your joy and give you joy after sadness. He can give love after your experiencing hatred and hatred after enjoying love. He can give you determination after your uncertainty and uncertainty after having determination. He can give you strong desires after your experiencing dislike and dislike after having strong desires. He can give you willingness after experiencing fear and concerns and fear after having strong willingness. He can give you hope after despair and despair after having a great deal of hope. He can give you good remembrance of what you had no idea and remove what you may have had as a belief.” He kept reminding and counting for me the effects of His power within my soul that I could not deny and I begin to have a feeling that all that is between me and him will all appear in the open.” From the same source the following is narrated from a number of our people in a Marfu‘ manner as additional statements to the above discourse of ibn abu al-‘Awja’ with Imam abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.). That abu al-‘Awja’ came the next day to the meeting of the Imam and sat down quietly. The Imam (a.s.) said to him, “Would you like to review the issues we discussed yesterday?” He replied, “I did intend to do so, O son of the messenger of Allah.” The Imam then said, “It is strange that one who does not believe in Allah acknowledges the existence of the messenger of Allah.” He replied, “It is only the habit that made me say so.” The ‘Alim (the Imam) then asked, “What is it that keeps you quite?” He replied, “It is your excellence and awesome spiritual ability that hold my tongue back from speaking. I have seen many scholars and have debated many theologians but I never experienced such an awesome feeling from them as I feel in your presence.” The Imam then said, “ It may happen. I would like to open this session with a question to you. The Imam turned to him and asked, “Are you created or uncreated?” ‘Abdul Karim ibn abu al-‘Awja’ answered, “ I am uncreated.” The ‘Alim then asked him, “Describe for us then, how you might have been if you were created.” ‘Abdal Karim remained quiet and confused and began to scribble scrabble with a piece of wood, saying, long, wide, deep, short, moving and motionless all these are the qualities of His creatures.” The ‘Alim (Imam) then said, “If you do not know anything other than these as the qualities of the creation then consider yourself a creature because that is what you find within yourself that take place and come into existence.” ‘Abdal Karim then said, “You have asked me a question that no one before had ever asked and no one ever would ask afterwards.” Abu ‘Abdallah then said, “It is fine. I noticed that you did not ask any thing in the time past but how would you know that you will not ask any thing in future? Besides, O ‘Abdal Karim, what you said is against your notion that from the beginning all things are equal. How then you made them before and after? The Imam then said, “O ‘Abdal Karim let me explain it for you. Suppose if you had a bag with you full of pearls and someone asked you, “Is there a Dinar in your bag?” You then denied and said, “No, there is no Dinar in my bag.” The person then said, “Alright, then describe for me the qualities of the Dinar but you had no knowledge of the qualities of the Dinar. Could you deny the existence of the Dinar that was from the bag but you did not know about it?” he replied, “No, I would not deny.” The Imam then said, “The world is bigger, taller and wider than a bag. Perhaps in the world there is a creature as such that you do not know in whose case you would not be able to tell the qualities of the created from the non-created.” ‘Abdal Karim remained quiet but some of his people agreed to accept Islam and a few of them remained. He came again to the meeting of the Imam on the third day and said, “I like to reverse the question.” The Imam replied, “Ask whatever you like.” He then asked, “What is the proof that bodies did not exist and then they came into existence?” The Imam then said, “I have not seen anything small or large that on adding to it something of the same size would not make it bigger and in this there is a change and transformation from the first condition. If it, however, would have been eternal, there would have been no changing and transformation. What may cease to exist or change it may come into existence and may get destroyed, thus, with its existence after its none existence is entering into the state of coming into being and as being eternal this will take it into nothingness but the two qualities of being eternal and nothingness and the qualities of a contingent and something without a beginning in one thing do come together.” ‘Abdal Karim then said, “Suppose, I noticed that with a view to the two conditions you mentioned you considered it a proof of their contingency. If, however, things would remain small, despite the addition, then how would you prove their contingency?” The ‘Alim then said, “We speak of this universe that is already there. Were we to take it away and place another universe in its place nothingness would have, certainly, been a stronger proof of its contingency than its removal and its replacing with a different one. I, however, will answer you according to your assumption. If things would still remain small but it would certainly come into one’s thinking that whenever something like it added to another thing it then would be bigger. The fact that it can change is proof of its becoming temporal and in its changing condition is proof of its contingency. There is nothing beyond it for you, O ‘Abdal Karim. ‘Abdal Karim had nothing else to say. Next year he met the Imam (a.s.) in Makkah again and people from his followers said that ‘Abdal Karim has become a Muslim. The Imam told him that ‘Abdal Karim was blind in this matter and would not become a Muslim. When he saw the ‘Alim he said, “My master, my chief!” The ‘Alim then asked him, “What brings you here?” He then replied, “It is the habits of the body and the traditions of the town to see what craziness makes them shave and throw pebbles.” The ‘Alim said, “It seems that you still live in your arrogance and misguidance, O ‘Abdal Karim.” He began to speak but the Imam said, “Disputation during Hajj is not permissible. The Imam freed his gown from the hand of the heretic man and said, “If it is the way you say and it is not true, then we as well as you are all saved. However, if it is the way we say and it is true we are saved but you are destroyed.” ‘Abdal Karim then turned to his people saying, “I feel pain in my heart. Take me back. They took him away and he died.