A Session in the Presence of Al-ma’mun of al-Ridha’s Debate On Unity With Soleiman Al-marwazi - the Theologian From Khorasan

My cousin Ali ibn Musa Al-Ridha (s) has come here from Hijaz. He likes theology and theologians. Thus it would not be any trouble if you came to hold adebate with him on the 8th of Dhul-Hajja (the Day of Tarwiyah) to have a debate with him.”Soleiman said, “O Commander of the Faithful! I dislike questioning him in your session and amongst a group of the Hashemites. The people will regard him as incapable when he debates with me on theology. Incapabilities are not permissible for him.”Al-Ma’mun said, “I have invited you because I know that you are learned (in theology). I have no intentions except for you to silence him in an argument.” Soleiman said, “O Commander of the Faithful! I will do it for you. Just bring us together. Just sit back and watch.”Then Al-Ma’mun sent someone after Al-Ridha (s) and said, “A man from Marwaz who is not equal to you in theology has come and asked for you to come to us. Come here if you do not mind.” The Imam (s) made ablutions and told us to go ahead. Imran As-Sa’ebee was with us. We went until we arrived at Al-Ma’mun’s court. Yasir and Khalid took my hands and led me in. When I got in and greeted (Al-Ma’mun), he asked, “Where is my brother Abul Hassan whom may the Sublime God maintain?” I said, “When we were coming he was putting on his clothes. He ordered us to go ahead.” Then I added, “O Commander of the Faithful! Your servant Imran is also with me. He is right outside.” He said, “Who is Imran?” I said, “He is the Sabian who became a Muslim because of you.” He said, “Let him in.” Then Imran came in. Al-Ma’mun welcomed him and then told him, “O Imran! You did not die and join the Hashemites!” Imran said, “O Commander of the Faithful! Praise be to God who honored me by you.” Al-Ma’mun said, “O Imran! This is Soleiman al-Marwazi who is the theologian from Khorasan.” Imran said, “O Commander of the Faithful! He thinks that he is the only one in Khorasan versed in theoretical principles and refutes origination (bida’). Al-Ma’mun said, “Why don’t you have a debate with him?” Imran said, “This depends on him.” Then Al-Ridha (s) came in and asked, “What were you discussing?” Imran said, “O son of the Prophet of God! This is Soleiman al-Marwazi.”Soleiman told Imran, “Will you be pleased with Abil Hassan (s) and what he says about origination. Imran said, “Yes, I will if he (s) presents arguments which I can present when I argue with other theologians like myself.”Al-Ma’mun said, “O Abul Hassan! What is your opinion regarding what they argue about?” The Imam (s) said, “O Soleiman! How could you not believe in origination while the Honorable the Exalted God said, ‘But does not man call to mind that We created him before out of nothing?’ And the Honorable the Exalted God said, ‘It is He Who begins (the process of) Creation; then repeats it…’ And says, ‘To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth…’ Moreover, the Honorable the Exalted God said, ‘He adds to Creation as He pleases…’ and says, ‘…He began the Creation of man with (nothing more than) clay.’ Also the Honorable the Exalted God says, ‘There are (yet) others, held in suspense for the command of God, whether He will punish them, or turn in mercy to them…’ And the Honorable the Exalted God says, ‘…Nor is a man long-lived granted length of days, nor is a part cut off from his life, but is in a Decree (ordained)…’ Soleiman asked, “Has anything been narrated to you on this issue from your forefather?” The Imam (s) said, “Yes. It has been narrated by my father on the authority of Abi Abdullah (s) who said, “The Honorable the Exalted God has two bodies of knowledge: a Treasured Knowledge, Hidden Knowledge which no one but Him is informed of. Origination is rooted in that knowledge. And He has a second knowledge which He has taught the angels and His Messengers which the knowledgeable Members of the Holy Household are also aware of.”Soleiman said, “I would like you to present this from the Book of the Honorable the Exalted God.” The Imam (s) said, “The Honorable the Exalted God said, ‘So turn away from them: not thine is the blame.’ At first God wanted to destroy them. But then the Sublime God changed His mind and said, ‘But teach (thy Message) for teaching benefits the Believers.’ Soleiman said, “May I be your ransom! Tell me more.” Then Al-Ridha (s) said, “My father (s) informed me on the authority of his forefathers (s), on the authority of God’s Prophet (s) that the Honorable the Exalted God revealed to one of His Prophets to let one of the Kings know that God will take away his life at such and such a time. The Prophet (s) went to see the King and told him that. Then the King pleaded to God while he was on his bed and fell off of it. He said, “O Lord! Postpone my demise until I see my son grow up to undertake my affairs.” Then the Honorablethe Exalted God revealed to that Prophet (s), “Go to that King and inform him that I have decided to postpone his death. I have added fifteen years to his life.”The Prophet (s) said, “O Lord! You well know that I have never lied.” Then the Honorable the Exalted God revealed to him, “You are just an agent. Announce this to him. God is never questioned about what He does.” Then the Imam (s) turned towards Soleiman and said, “I think you have the same opinion as the Jews in this regard.” Soleiman said, “From this I seek refuge in God.” The Imam (s) said, “The Jews say, ‘God’s hand is tied up...’ They mean that God is finished working and is sitting back and does not Create anything else. But the Honorable the Exalted God has given them the following answer, ‘…Be their hands tied up and be they accursed for the (blasphemy) they utter….’ I have also heard my father Musa ibn Ja’far (s) say the following when asked about Origination, ‘How could the people refute origination, and that God might procrastinate the affairs of some people for a decision regarding them?’”Soleiman asked, “Can you tell me for what has the following verse been revealed? ‘We have indeed revealed this (Message) in the Night of Power.’ The Imam (s) said, “O Soleiman! The Honorable the Exalted God will decide the destiny (of an individual) for one year including life or death, good or bad, and sustenance on the Night of Power. Whatever God destines on that night comes to be.” Soleiman said, “Now I understand. Please tell me more.”The Imam (s) said, “O Soleiman! Some of the affairs are up to the Honorable the Exalted God and what He wills. He can expedite what He wills and procrastinate what He wills. He can destroy what He wills. O Soleiman, Ali (s) said, “Knowledge is of two types: Knowledge which God has taught His angels and His Messengers - that which God has taught His angels and His Messengers will be done, and that which is hidden near Him and He has informed none of His creatures of it. It is by this knowledge which He expedites what He wills to expedite, procrastinates what He wills to procrastinate; destroys what He wills to destroy, and He stabilizes what He wills to stabilize.”Soleiman told Al-Ma’mun, “O Commander of the Faithful! From today on I will not refute Creation or deny it by God’s Will.” Al-Ma’mun said,“O Soleiman! Ask Abul Hassan whatever you wish. Just listen carefully and be fair.” Soleiman said, “O my Master! May I ask?” Al-Ridha (s) said, “Ask whatever you wish.”Soleiman said, “What is your view about someone who considers will to be a name - an attribute similar to ‘ living’, ‘hearing’, ‘seeing’, and ‘powerful’?”Al-Ridha (s) said, “You say that things were originated and became different because He so desired and willed. But you do not say that things were originated and became different because He is All-Hearing and All-Seeing. This is a proof that they (i.e. will and desire) are not similar to All-Hearing, All-Seeing, and All-Powerful.”Soleiman said, “He has always been willing.” The Imam answered him, “O Soleiman! Is His will something other than Him?”He replied, “Yes.” The Imam (s) said, “Then you have proved that there has always been something along with Him forever.” Soleiman said, “No, I have not.” Al-Ridha (s) said, “Is will originated?” Soleiman said, “No. It is not.” Then Al-Ma’mun shouted at him and said, “O Soleiman! Are you showing obstinacy and giving vague answers to such a person as him. You must be fair. Don’t you see that people of intellect are sitting around you?” Then Al-Ma’mun said, “O Abul Hassan! Continue your debate on theology with him since he is the theologian of Khorasan.”Then the Imam asked him, “O Soleiman! Is it (the will) originated? Whatever is not Eternal is certainly originated. And if it is not originated it is Eternal.”Soleiman said, “His (Allah’s) will is (part) of Him just as His Hearing, His Sight and His Knowledge are (parts) of Him.” Al-Ridha (s) said, “Did He will Himself?” Soleiman answered, “No.” The Imam (s) said, “Therefore, willing is not like the hearing and the seeing.” Soleiman said, “Surely, He willed Himself just as He heard Himself, saw Himself, and recognized Himself.”Al-Ridha (s) said, “What is the meaning of ‘He willed Himself’? Did He will to be a thing? Did He will to be All-Living, All-Hearing, All-Seeing or All-Powerful?”Soleiman said, “Yes.” Al-Ridha (s) said, “Did that occur through His will?” Soleiman answered, ‘Yes.’ Al-Ridha (s) said, “Then your statement, ‘Hewilled to be All-Living, All-Hearing, and All-Seeing,’ does not make any sense since they were not done through His Will.” Soleiman said, “Yes. That was through His Will.”Then Al-Ma’mun and the people around him burst into laughter. Al-Ridha (s) laughed too and said, “Do not be too hard on the theologian from Khorasan. O Soleiman! “Do you think that He (i.e. Allah, the Exalted) has altered from state to state and changed due to it? This is something by which the Honorable the Exalted God cannot be described.” Soleiman remained silent.Al-Ridha (s) said, “O Soleiman! May I ask you a question?”Soleiman said, “May I be your ransom! Ask.”The Imam (s) said, “Tell me about you and your companions: Do you debate with the people on theology according to what you understand and know or according to what you do not understand and do not know?” Soleiman said, “Yes! (We debate) according to what we understand and know.”Al-Ridha (s) said, “The thing which the people know is that the willing is different from the will. The willing exists before the will. The subject is before the object. This (statement) disproves your statement, ‘The willing and the willed are the same thing.’” Soleiman said, “May I be your ransom! This is not what the people know about and understand.” Al-Ridha (s) said, “I think that you have claimed to have the knowledge without having a true recognition of it and said, ’Willing is like hearing and seeing’ while this view is not based on knowledge or the intellect.” Soleiman could not answer.Then Al-Ridha (s) said, “O Soleiman! Does God have knowledge of all those who are in Paradise and the Fire?” Soleiman said, “Yes.”The Imam (s) said, “Will what the Sublime God knows would be created in the future, actually be created?” Soleiman answered, “Yes.”The Imam (s) said, “If it is done to the extent that nothing else remains, can God add more to them or will He stop doing so?”Soleiman said, “He will add to them.” The Imam (s) said, “Then based on what you have said, God adds to them what He did not know would be created.” Then he added, “May I be your ransom! There is no limit foradding.” The Imam (s) said, “Then in your opinion His Knowledge does not encompass what is therein (in Paradise), since He does not know the limit of that which will be in Paradise. If His Knowledge does not encompass what is therein, then He would not know what will be there before they existed. The Honorable the Exalted God is Exalted High above that!”Soleiman said, “When I said God does not know about them it was because they have no limit and the Honorable the Exalted God Himself has described them as eternal. Therefore we do not want to assume an end for them.”Al-Ridha (s) said, “God’s Knowledge of them will not limit them. There are many instances of which He has knowledge, then He adds to them and does not take away what He has added to them. These are supported by the Words of the Honorable the Exalted God in His Book, ‘…as often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the penalty…’ And He told the residents of Paradise, ‘…a gift without break.’ And the Honorable the Exalted said, ‘Whose season is not limited, nor (supply) forbidden?’ Therefore the Honorable the Exalted God knows about these and does not block them from accessing to what is added. Will He not replace what the residents of Paradise eat and drink?” Soleiman said, “Yes.”The Imam (s) said, “Has He stopped His Granting now that He has replaced the consumed foods and drinks?” Soleiman said, “No.”Then Al-Ridha (s) said, “O Soleiman! Tell me about Will: Is it an action or not?”Soleiman said, “It is an action.”The Imam (s) said, “Therefore it is originated, for all actions are originated.” Soleiman said, “It is not an action.”The Imam (s) said, “Has there then been something else with Him who is eternal?” Soleiman said, “The Will is the same as bringing forth.”The Imam (s) said, “O Soleiman! This is exactly what you criticized Dirar and his companions of, saying that everything that the Honorable the Exalted God has created in the heavens, the Earth, the oceans or on land such as dogs, pigs, monkeys, humans or animals are God’s Will, and that God’s Will lives, dies, goes away, eats, drinks, marries, feels pleasure, oppresses, commits immoral acts, disbelieves, becomes a polytheist. We denounce this and oppose it. This is its limit.”Soleiman said, “It (i.e. will) is like hearing, seeing and knowledge.”Al-Ridha (s) said, “You just returned to what you said before. Tell me: Are hearing, seeing and knowledge made?”Soleiman said, “No.” Al-Ridha (s) said, “How do you then refute Will? You sometimes say that He did not will and sometimes you say that He willed, and that it (i.e. will) was not one of His actions.”Soleiman said, “Surely, that is like saying, He sometimes knows and sometimes does not know!”Al-Ridha (s) said, “That is not the same, for negating the known is not like negating knowledge; negating what is willed is (not like) negating the will, for if the thing is not willed, there will be no will. However, sometimes there is knowledge, but there may be no known thing. This is like seeing. Man may be able to see, but there may be nothing there for him to see. Likewise, there may be knowledge, but there is no known thing.” Soleiman said, “It (i.e. will) is made.” The Imam (s) said, “Therefore, it (will) is originated and is not like hearing and seeing, for hearing and seeing are not made, and it (will) is made.”Soleiman said, “It (will) is one of His eternal attributes.” The Imam (s) answered, “Therefore, man must be eternal, for his quality is eternal.”Soleiman said, “No, because He did not do it (will)”. Al-Ridha (s) said, “O Khorasani! How often you make mistakes! Are things not made according to His Will and Words?” Soleiman said, “No.” The Imam (s) said, “If things are not made according to His Will or Volition, His Command or His Practice, then how are they made? God is High Exalted above that!” Soleiman could not respond.Then Al-Ridha (s) asked, “Will you not tell me about these Words of the Honorable the Exalted God: ‘When We decide to destroy a population, We (first) send a definite order to those among them who are given the good things of this life and yet transgress…’By ‘We decide’ does God mean that He creates His own Will?” Soleiman said, “Yes.”The Imam (s) answered him, “If He creates His own Will, then your statement that ‘Will is He Himself or is a part of him’ is futile, for it is not (possible) for Him to create Himself and God does not change His State. God is High Exalted above that.”Soleiman told him, “Yes.” The Imam (s) said, “Then if He originates the Will, what you said, “Will is the same as God Himself or a part thereof” is wrong since God does not originate Himself or change from His current state. God is High Exalted above that.”Soleiman asked, “By that He does not mean that He creates His own will?”The Imam (s) asked, “So what does He mean?”Soleiman said, “He means doing something.”Al-Ridha (s) said, “Woe unto you! How many times have you repeated this issue? I told you that will is originated, since the action and the Creation of a thing is originated.”Soleiman said, “Then this has no meaning.”Al-Ridha (s) said, “Do you then think that He describes Himself with will which has no meaning? If will has no eternal or originated meaning, then that will nullify your statement, “The Honorable the Exalted God has always been willing.” Soleiman said, “I mean to say that willing has been one of the eternal actions of the Sublime God.”The Imam (s) said, “Don’t you know that what is eternal cannot be made, originated and eternal at the same time?”Soleiman could not answer. Al-Ridha (s) said, “Never mind! Complete your questions.” Soleiman said, “Did you say that Will is one of His Attributes?”The Imam (s) said, “Why do you repeat this so many times? Are His Attributes originated or eternal?” Soleiman said, “Originated.”Al-Ridha (s) said, “God is the Greatest! You are telling me that the Will is originated, even though it is one of His Eternal Attributes. Therefore God has not willed anything!” The Imam (s) added, “Whatever is eternal is not created.”Soleiman said, “Things are not the same as the will, and He did not will anything.”Al-Ridha (s) said, “O Soleiman! You are whispering. Has God created what He has not willed to create? This is an attribute of someone who does not know what he is doing. God is High Exalted above that!”Soleiman said, “O my Master! I have already informed you that it is like hearing, seeing and knowing.”Al-Ma’mun said, “O Soleiman! Woe unto you! How often have you erred and how often have you have repeated yourself? Stop it and take up another issue since you seem to be unable to provide any better answer than that.”Al-Ridha (s) said, “O Commander of the Faithful! Leave him alone! Do not interrupt his questions, since then he will regard it as an argument (against me). O Soleiman! Speak.”Soleiman said, “I have already informed you that it is like hearing, seeing and knowing.”Al-Ridha (s) said, “Never mind! Tell me whether will has one meaning or several meanings.” Soleiman said, “One meaning.”Al-Ridha (s) said, “Is the meaning of all the wills then the same?” Soleiman said, “Yes.”Al-Ridha (s) said, “If its meanings are the same, then it must be that the will to stand up is the same as the will to sit down, or the will to live isthe same as the will to die. If His Will is all one thing, then none of God’s desires will take precedence over any others. None will be any different from any others. They will all be one thing.”Soleiman replied, “Surely, the meanings are different.”The Imam (s) said, “Then, tell me about the willed. Is it the same as the will or is it something else?” Soleiman said, “Yes. It is the same as the will.”Al-Ridha (s) said, “Then according to you the willed is something else since it is the same as the will.” Soleiman said, “O my Master! Will is not the same as the willed.”Al-Ridha (s) said, “Then will is originated. Otherwise it must be that something else existed along with God. Understand this well. Continue on with your questions.”Soleiman said, “It is one of His Names.”Al-Ridha (s) said, “Did He name Himself that?”Soleimam replied, “No. He did not name Himself that.”Al-Ridha (s) said, “Therefore, you have no right to name Him with what He did not name Himself.” Soleiman said, “But He described Himself to be willed.”Al-Ridha (s) said, “The fact that He has described Himself as willed does not mean that He wanted to inform us that He is the Will, or that Will is one of His Names.” Soleiman said, “That is because His Will is the same as His Knowledge.”Al-Ridha (s) said, “O Ignorant one! If He knows something, does that not mean that He has willed it.” Soleiman said, “Yes.” The Imam (s) asked, “But if He does not will something, does that mean that He does not know it?” Soleiman said, “Yes.”The Imam (s) said, “What is your source for that statement? What is the evidence that His Will is the same as His Knowledge? He may know something but never Will it. This is supported by what the Honorable the Exalted God said, ‘If it were Our Will, We could take away that which We have sent thee by inspiration…’ And God knows how to take it away, but He never will.” Soleiman said, “That is because He has finished running the affairs and will not add anything to what He has destined.”Al-Ridha (s) said, “This is what the Jews say. The Sublime God said, ‘…Call on Me; I will answer your (Prayer)…’ Soleiman said, “By this He means that He is able to do that.” The Imam (s) said, “Does He then make a promise which He will not fulfill?” Then how come He said, ‘…He adds to Creation as He pleases…’ And the Honorable the Exalted God said, ‘Allah doth blot out or confirm what He pleaseth: with Him is the Mother of the Book.’ Has He finished running the affairs?” Soleiman could not answer.Al-Ridha (s) said, “O Soleiman! Does He know that a human being would be created while He did not will to create a human being by no means? That a human being will die today while He has not willed to make him die today?” Soleiman said, “Yes.”Al-Ridha (s) asked, “Does He know that what He wills exists or does He know about what He has not willed does not exist?” Soleiman said, “He knows that both of them exist.” Al-Ridha (s) said, “Therefore, He knows that man is simultaneously alive and dead, is standing and sitting, is blind and seeing at the same time. This is impossible.” Soleiman said, “May I be your ransom! He knows that one of them will exist.”The Imam (s) said, “Do not worry. Which one will exist? The one which He willed, or the one which He did not will?” Soleiman said, “What He has willed to be!”Al-Ridha (s), Al-Ma’mun and the scholars started to laugh.Al-Ridha (s) said, “You have erred and departed from your initial statements, “He knows that some people will die today while He has not willed to make them die today, that He creates creatures while He does not will to create them.” If your hold that knowledge does not apply to what He has not willed, then He alone knows what He has willed.Soleiman said, “My statement is that Will is neither He nor something other than Him!”Al-Ridha (s) said, “O Ignorant one! If you say that will is not He, then you have regarded it as (something) other than him. If you say that willis not (something) other than Him, then you have regarded it as Him.” Soleiman asked, “Does God know how He creates things?”Al-Ridha (s) said, “Yes.” Soleiman said, “Surely, this establishes something.” Al-Ridha (s) said, “You have said something impossible. That is because man may know how to build a wall, even though he does not build one; may know how to sew, even though he does not sew anything; or may know how to make something well, even though he does not make it.”Then Al-Ridha (s) said, “O Soleiman! Does God know that He is One without anything with Him?” Soleiman replied, “Yes.”Al-Ridha (s) said, “Does this establish that there is something along with Him?” Soleiman said, “He does not know that He is One without anything with Him.”Al-Ridha (s) asked, “Do you know that?”Soleiman replied, “Yes.”“O Soleiman! Therefore you are more knowledgeable than Him!” Soleiman said, “This is impossible.”The Imam (s) said, “Is it impossible in your view that He is One without anything with Him, that He is All-Hearing, All-Seeing, All-Wise, and All-Powerful?” He replied, “Yes.” The Imam (s) said, “Then how did the Honorable the Exalted God say that He was One, All-Living, All-Hearing, All-Seeing, All-Wise, All-Powerful, All-Knowing, All-Aware, while He did not know that? This refutes what you say. God is High Exalted above that.”Then Al-Ridha (s) asked him, “How does He will to create that which He does not know how to create and what it is? If a creator does not know how to create something before he creates it, then he is perplexed. The Sublime God is Exalted High above that!”Soleiman said, “Will is the same as Power.” Al-Ridha (s) said, “He - the Honorable the Exalted always has power over what He wills. There is no escape from that, for He - the Blessed the Sublime said, ‘If it were Our Will, We could take away that which We have sent thee by inspiration…’ If will is the same as power, God had Willed to take it away because of His Power.” Then Soleiman remained silent.At this time Al-Ma’mun said, “O Soleiman! This is the most learned of the Hashemites!” Then the people dispersed.The author of this book (Sheikh Sadooq) - may God be pleased with him - said, “Al-Ma’mun was jealous of (the scholarly position of) Al-Ridha (s). Therefore, he invited the scholars of the various sects and religions who had deviated from the straight path and anyone he knew or had heard of around the globe to have debates with Al-Ridha (s) and defeat the Imam (s) in his (s) proofs, so that Al-Ma’mun’s feelings of jealousy be somewhat relieved and the Imam’s (s) scientific position be discredited. However, whoever held a debate with the Imam (s) acknowledged his (s) nobility and was convinced by the proofs presented by the Imam (s). This was because God - High be His Remembrance - did not like anyone to defeat Al-Ridha (s). God perfects His Light and assists His Proof. This is what the Blessed the Sublime God has promised in His Book, ‘We will, without doubt, help our apostles and those who believe, (both) in this world’s life…’ By ‘those who believe’, God means the Immaculate Imams, their knowledgeable followers and those who have adopted the Imams’ proof against their enemies for as long as they are in this world. God will treat them likewise in the Hereafter. The Honorable the Exalted God will never act against His Promise.